Judge Frances Millane, WBA convenor 2001-02

There was always resistance to what was perceived to be criticism of them and I think of an example, when I came to be convenor, there were 18 standing committees that the Bar had at that time, and I may be wrong about this, only one, possibly Rachelle had just been appointed to the County Court and you (Rachelle Lewitan) had chaired the Equality Before the Law Committee and once Rachelle left, I don’t think we had a woman chairing a standing committee, or perhaps only one woman –

Fiona McLeod SC

The Child Care Committee –

Judge Frances Millane

The Child Care Committee – that’s right. And when we raised these sorts of issues, there was always a desire not to make them feel that we were just being overly critical but really couldn’t we just get to the stage when they were appointing their standing committees, which there was no real process as such, it’s just that the chair of the Bar Council and the Bar Council appointed people to these committees. And inevitably the chair of the committee was a male and often a senior male too, like a silk. And we said, you know, can we look at a more transparent process and include the women? You know, we are still here represented as a group but we’re not represented in these organisations and the perception I felt was that you had to tippy-toe round a bit to make them feel that it wasn’t a personal criticism because they’d overlooked the fact that really women weren’t being represented in significant areas of the power structure of the Bar and that flowed down the Bar, and we perceived that as a wrong and we also perceived it as something that needed to be corrected.

Juliette Brodsky

And in calling for more due process which is what you were just alluding to a moment ago, in a sense could it be said that the WBA might have been in a sense responsible for bringing greater procedures of transparency, accountability to Bar culture and certainly at Bar Council level?

Judge Frances Millane

Well, it’s my belief that men have benefited from it too and that was one of the arguments we put forward is that a transparent process, a process whereby people who put their hands up and say I want to be on that committee, that’s the first thing, but secondly that there be a process whereby they appointed at least a couple of women to the committee. That was a recommendation in the (Hunter) report that women have representation on a range of committees. Men benefited too because they got into that process as well, because I know when I was convenor and also when I was chair of Equality Before the Law Committee, men complained to me about not being able to get onto committees themselves, that they felt that they were being sidelined.

Juliette Brodsky

And what was the evidence for that?

Judge Frances Millane

Well by more powerful men who traditionally got onto those committees. In other words, the process was failing men as well who wanted the opportunity to go on these committees too. So yes, I think they’ve been affected all round from the changes that women have pressed for.

Juliette Brodsky

Judge Lewitan?

Judge Rachelle Lewitan

The code of conduct is very important as an education tool because at the time it was introduced, most of the men were saying, “It just never happens, it never happens!” [Laughter] Then after it was introduced, I was on a committee, the Equalising Opportunities in the Law Committee which was a Law Council Canberra committee and we moved, and it was introduced Australia-wide and there was a great deal of resistance, and the Victorian Bar was held as this very progressive [laughter] body because they had already introduced it, and they were.

Frances O’Brien SC

Because they did do it and they supported it, once it was in. But you still need that sort of change of attitude. Because you’re never going to change their attitudes, but you might change their behaviours. I mean, there is always going to be this core group of people who believe that that conduct is perfectly acceptable, but if there – there would be consequences if they act it out and if they understand that there is not – there’s consequences (if) they don’t. It’s as simple as that.

Fiona McLeod SC

There is still a level of unconsciousness and ignorance about the sort of things that people might be offended by. At dinners this year, I have heard comments that are meant to inspire and encourage junior members of the bar said that have just shocked me and immediately I’ve gone up and said to the person who said them, “You can’t say that, that’s revolting”. “Oh, oh, really?” You can be sure that person will never say that sort of thing again, but you still have to say it.

Edited transcript of interviews conducted by Juliette Brodsky on March 30 and April 10 2007 in the Neil McPhee Room, Owen Dixon Chambers East, and filmed by Sarah McLeod, Stewart Carter, Branden Barber and Bonnie Elliott.