Juliette Brodsky

Judge Lewitan who was the chairperson of the Child Care Committee when it was first set up and that committee pushed for and obtained a number of amendments to the Bar rules back then and one of the very important things was establishing a rental subsidy I believe for those with the primary care of children and of course without that subsidy of course many women would have found it very difficult to retain chambers and spend time at home in the months following the birth of a child. Now clearly that was something that you saw as a very important thing and how well has it worked, do you think, since its inception?

Judge Rachelle Lewitan

I think it’s changed certainly the capacity of women to stay at the Bar when they’ve got young children. The rules are no longer as restrictive and financially before it was impossible. When I had children, I retained my room - I was out of work for six months for the first child and four months for the second child - and I paid rent during that time so that I could maintain my room but you know I wasn’t – I had been at the Bar for some time and I could afford to do that but not everyone could and people were leaving so that – and they had to resign – they had to resign from the Bar, so that it was very important.

Dr Michelle Sharpe

Really, (the rental subsidy) improves the Bar and improves the lot for men as well as women, which is also the thing that bites. For example, organising parental leave for chambers so women and male barristers who had kids can get a subsidy of their rent, so that means that fathers as well can spend more time with their kids, and that was something that was fought for by the Women Barristers Association.

Helen Symon SC

But that was so bizarre. That was me. Except it was a real weird fight because it just struck me as common sense. I mean I was actually offended that I had been at the Bar for 10 years and here I was pregnant, and I was in this great set of chambers, and here I was with the choice of either paying the full amount of my chambers to keep them and stay in the great place where I was, or else leaving and have some Joe Blow take my room. You know, I thought, this is silly, I’ve built up my practice and part of it is (that) I have chambers with a particular group of people, so how come I risk losing that? And it wasn’t even that I was… it just struck me as common sense.

Caroline Kirton

But I’ve benefited from that policy so much over the years.

Judge Frances Millane

And so have the men too – a number of the men have been taking paternity leave.

Samantha Marks

And I’ve had a lot of younger women tell me that it is one of the major factors that made them stay on at the Bar at what can be a tricky time where financially, things are going down, emotionally, physically everything is changing, there is not only that financial support but there is the sense that the Bar wants to encourage you to stay and I don’t think you can undercut how much that can matter as well.

Judge Rachelle Lewitan

And there is also flexibility. The ability that you can know that you can come back when you want to come back and that a room will be there for you so you can dictate the terms because you don’t know when you’re pregnant how long you will need, or how much time…

Fran O’Brien SC

But you know, Rachelle, the argument you made at the time was that the Bar had not long before had a special policy in relation to getting young people to come to the Bar so they had a rental subsidy system for that. So that really, once that argument was made about this, that was really the end of the argument and that is how it got through the Bar Council.

Samantha Marks

And the other thing that should be mentioned (is that) it is limited to six months, so it’s not some open-ended thing that’s eating – and the other argument that I recall we put is well if you keep the barristers here, you’ll get a lot more rent out of them in the future. You’re only talking about a limited rent for six months.

Dr Michelle Sharpe

When I fell pregnant, I was very scared to tell people to tell instructors and I kept it quiet until Mother Nature made it quite obvious to ‘fess up. So, I remember to my great disappointment some barristers actually telling me, I remember one barrister in particular telling me, I thought a male friend, telling me, “Oh well, I guess your career won’t be so important to you now”. And I was just stunned and I said, “Well what do you mean by that?” And he said, “Well, you won’t be able to work the way you’ve worked when you have a child”. And I persisted, I said, “And what do you mean by that?” And he said, “Well at the drop of a hat I had to go to New South Wales and do a brief – I imagine you can’t do that”. And I said, “Well why not?” “Well, haven’t you heard, abandoning a child is a crime?” [Laughter] And he actually said this to me, and I was stunned.

Judge Liz Gaynor

And he lived on afterwards, did he, Michelle?!

Dr Michelle Sharpe

I was really quite disgusted. I said, “Well you know, I didn’t get pregnant by myself and what’s more, there are support services” and I continued to work. I’ve got a brief that I continue to do, I’m doing an advice with a silk and I work from home so I’ve got the subsidised chambers when I come in, but she’s (the baby) a little bit too small for that, so I have my laptop in front of me and I have the baby on the bed gurgling away if I’m lucky, and I work that way. But there are a lot of people, including for example the silk. When I told him (about the baby), I thought he was going to – well, I was a bit nervous, I thought maybe he might pull the brief or say, “That’s going to be difficult for you to do”, but he was lovely. He said to me, “Well you’d better get cracking before she starts crying”. He was lovely but then there have been other people who seem to have assumed that now I’m not going to be so career-focused, that you know, I’m just going to perhaps do a little bit, you know, just to keep my hand in.

Judge Liz Gaynor

A bit of dabbling.

Dr Michelle Sharpe

Yes, a bit of dabbling, “work for a bit of pin money but you know, I’m not going to be a serious barrister any more”.

Helen Symon SC

But I’m frustrated that given that there are now, there is now a pretty significant group of senior women (at the Bar), that you’re still encountering that attitude, Michelle. That is a real bother. That’s something that we need to take on.

Judge Liz Gaynor

Yes it’s true.

Helen Symon SC

I don’t know how you actually change that attitude but it is just bizarre.

Juliette Brodsky

One of the fortunate coincidences, I was thinking for the WBA is that (information) technology has come along, pretty much along with the WBA’s inception in 1993, so it does give you some flexibility doesn’t it with regard to being able to be productive from the work point of view but also to be flexible, or have you not necessarily found this to be the case?

Dr Michelle Sharpe

I think for me, doing advice work and that sort of thing, it’s just been fantastic. You can communicate by email, I’ve got the phone, I’ve got broadband internet connection, so I can surf the web and download cases and now instructors will also email you briefs. I’ve also had instructors who can scan and email your documents, so I think it’s fantastic. Also I think particularly instructors now are more comfortable with that sort of flexibility. I think a lot of them don’t get so freaked out about the idea of actually sending you stuff that way or at home.

Judge Liz Gaynor

That’s a really good point actually, that notion, because what I was talking about before that idea that barristers have to be either in chambers or in court, you’re sort of like a fly in amber, (either in) one or the other and technology itself has made that less of an imperative in any event, so that has actually probably really helped the cause, I think.

Edited transcript of interviews conducted by Juliette Brodsky on March 30 and April 10 2007 in the Neil McPhee Room, Owen Dixon Chambers East, and filmed by Sarah McLeod, Stewart Carter, Branden Barber and Bonnie Elliott.